Empowering Fellow Students — Turning Challenges into Opportunities

Liberty Hombe is an advocate for justice — the ultimate example of someone who turns challenges into opportunities. Liberty is a pre-med student born in Zimbabwe but spent much of his childhood in South Africa. He is attending Minnesota State University in Mankato and has started several student organizations that help improve the lives of international students. Today, you can find Liberty empowering students to find their voice as he himself exemplifies the change he wants to see in the world. This is his story.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Hello. Hi, how are you? Welcome to International Student Stories, where we share authentic stories from international students studying in the US. My name is Simon Hamlin. I am your guide on this journey. Together, we get to explore international students' dreams and passions and the impressive things they do to help shape our schools, society, and the world. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm very excited for you to meet Liberty Homebey. Liberty is the ultimate example of someone who turns challenges into opportunities. At Minnesota State University in Mankato, he's started not just one, but several student organizations that help improve the lives of he and his fellow international students. Liberty is a pre-med student. He was born in Zimbabwe, but spent many of his formative years in South Africa. He is a very inspiring individual. Have fun hearing Liberty Home Bay's international student story. All right, we made it. Thanks for joining us. So I want to uh actually start this podcast a little bit differently than I than I normally would. I'm gonna play a little something for you. Is that okay? That's that's okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

That's one of my favorite quiz, and uh it was just remarkable.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

So tell me about that. When did you first hear that? So, that of course, just that's the famous John F. Kennedy inauguration speech of January 20th, 1961. Liberty, when did you first hear that?

SPEAKER_03 2:28

I was uh doing uh history back home, and uh so obviously we do United States history, and uh when came to the part of JFK, and we read about this card, and it was just in the book, and later on we went to watch it, and it was so powerful, and uh was like I feel like as humans we must take that responsibility to ourselves uh rather than what we expect other people to do, and it was something that motivated me to do a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

And did you uh did you listen to other of John F. Kennedy's speeches? Was it that one that that hooked you?

SPEAKER_03 3:18

That was the first one, and I had to listen to more of those, so I was like, this guy is powerful. Let me get to listen to more, then I started listening to more of his speech and all that, and also said that he was assassinated.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

I was like, man, he's one of the best. If you could spend a day with John F. Kennedy, what would you talk to with him about?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Uh, first thing I'll ask him what motivated him to say all that, and what was his views in terms of how the world works, and it looks it looked like he had a greater vision for the world and he was going to be one of the American presidents, what's going to change the atmosphere in the world, and also ask him about the Cuban crisis.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

I like it. Well, yeah, so you, I mean, and you're really part of helping to change the world too. There's a lot of amazing things that you're working on that I want to touch on. But since we started with kind of where this all came from, I want to dig in a little bit more to your childhood. You grew up in you were born in Zimbabwe, you lived there until second or third grade, and then you moved to South Africa, you lived there for 10 years, you moved back to Zimbabwe, then you moved back to South Africa. Do I have that timeline kind of correct? Correct. Okay. So I you said you were you in South Africa or Zimbabwe when you heard the JFK speech?

SPEAKER_03 4:50

I was in South Africa. It was um on my last year of high school when we're doing uh history for Europe and United States.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Okay. And what part of South Africa did you live in? Cape Town. Cape Town. Okay. And Zimbabwe, what part of Zimbabwe did you were you born in and did you move back to? It was like in Midlands, that like the middle of the country. Okay. What was life like growing up in Zimbabwe and in in South Africa for you?

SPEAKER_03 5:24

It was kind of different, uh, whereby in Zimbabwe they don't really have a lot of languages. Uh just have like three of your languages, and that's just more of it. And I was still young by that time, so I didn't really know a lot. And when I moved to SA, SA is different since I was in Cape Town, and it's more diverse in Cape Town. It's like we're in the United States. Uh so it was kind of a different experience moving from Zimbabwe to to South Africa. And I spent about 10 years there, and I was kind of used to the that atmosphere, and then I went back and it I was like, oh, I see. And it's something these two countries are totally different in terms of how everything works in their country and the economy and everything. So my experiences that I had in South Africa and in Zimbabwe were completely different. It was like two other worlds in terms of rights and everything, it's totally different. And that was the era of Robert Mgabes, too. So everything was just different, and like things that you can say in South Africa, you can't say them that other side. And that adjustment was kind of hard for me. Like, hey, you don't say that this year. I was like, oh, I mean what would be some examples of that? I mean, you couldn't comment on political issues. Uh, whenever whatever you say, you know, you don't actually go against the government. There's there is freedom of speech, but it's just on the constitution. In reality, you don't really have none of those things. If you post something that is against the government, they will not take on you. Or are the people that are just around you who supports that kind of rolling party and all that. So that was the era of Robert Imugabe. And that was the time I was there. And uh this is South Africa? No, this is Zimbabwe. This is Zimbabwe. Okay. So in South Africa, it's like the United States, you say what you want to say, everything is good. So I when I left South Africa going to Zimbabwe, having to adjust into all those things was kind of hard and different for me. I was like, oh, you don't say this. Oh, and that's why I didn't leave for long. I was like, this is a terrible place. I'm gonna leave you.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Well, and because I always thought that South Africa had quite a bit of, you know, there's like a lot of racism and issues there. But you're saying that you did not experience that as much as you did in, or just kind of having your voice silenced like you felt you did in Zimbabwe.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Absolutely. So in South Africa, yes, uh they do have racism, but like uh I think racism is in different forms. And uh in South Africa it's now kind of passive. And the people that were really into all that, they are old now. And the newer generation doesn't really abide to all those standards of their pathetic and everything. So it's kind of different country, and this new generation is very different. And if you're experiencing it, you're kind of experiencing systematic racism other than racism from your peers and other people that are around you.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

And did your were you moving back and forth because of your parents' jobs? I know you said you your your dad is a mechanical engineer, your mom is a in construction surveyor. What's the quantity survey? Quantity surveyor. Okay. So you guys were moving back and forth because of their jobs, is that right?

SPEAKER_03 9:05

Oh yeah, uh, it was of my mom. So my mom moved back to Zimbabwe and said, let's move back since my dad was not around a lot of the time. So he was working for the material shipping company, so he was not around a lot of times. That's why we moved to Zimbabwe.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

What was what was kind of day-to-day life like for you?

SPEAKER_03 9:29

So my life was kind of different because um I had to go to a boarding school. So that like uh during the semester, I'm away from home. I'm I'm going just gonna be home during holidays since my parents were working. Uh so they didn't want us just to be alone most of the times, you know, without supervision and all that. So they make sure that we send us to boarding. So we usually see each other during holidays. That's when I'm like, oh, he's back, he's back. And that's when we spend some time together during holidays. And after a month, we go back.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Was that common for uh to go to boarding school, or were you were you different from maybe other your friends that you were around or growing up with?

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Most of my friends were going to day school, and and it was kind of hard for me because I was like, I didn't like to go to boarding school because it was like a boys' school, like boys' high school, and you know, and it was not interesting for me. And I wanted to hang out and go, you know, friends, but in bedding school, it's a that it's a routine you are told what to do. I felt like I was in jail in some type of way. I was like, I'm told this is time for lunch, this is time to sleep, this is time to study, this is time. So I was like, everything was controlled, and that was the part that I didn't like, and I didn't have time to relax or just go out and all that. Like Cape Town is a beautiful place, so we have a lot of things to do. So being segregated and put there, it was kind of hard for me. I was like, uh, but yeah, that was a life that was going to work for us since our family was kind of functional in terms of work and all that.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Well, it's totally counter to your name, too, Liberty. You're saying you felt like you were kind of imprisoned and your name is Liberty. Where did that name come from?

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Oh, it was um my dad told me that, like uh, so South Africa was uh was underpathetic for a long time and they got uh independence in 1994, and I was born in 1998, so people were still trying to experience the freedom that they had dreamed of for a long time, and uh that's why you told me that's what I when I thought about it.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

I was like, I want to call you liberty. It's appropriate though. I mean, look at the work, the work that you're doing, and we'll we'll get into that more. But it seems like uh, you know, between the the JFK speech and your name and the experiences you had, the difference between Zimbabwe and South Africa and what you saw, I would think that would have informed a lot of what you do today. Were there anything, any other specific events or specific things that you remember growing up that you feel like really made you? I'm gonna call you kind of an activist, uh, someone who who who gets things done. Um where do you where else do you think that came from?

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Uh absolutely I think it was just in me, whereby when things are being done, or when I felt like there's a need for something to change that I feel like is unjust for us. Uh I feel like I didn't have to wait for somebody else to do it. It's like it's also my responsibility to take part of it and also do something about it. I can't expect some somebody else to do it so that I can experience that change. And I just believe that we should be the change that we want to see. And in order for that to happen, you should step up yourself. And you know, uh in history also learn about other people, like we had uh Steve Baker, which is one of the people that are activist in South Africa during the apartheid. A pathet was so hard that it was hard for him to even go up and stand up for what you think was right, but he did it anyway. He didn't let other people go in France so that he can get to see the freedom that he wants his people to see. So, and all those readings that I've been doing and history, history kind of shelved me a lot knowing about all those people, what they've done, and also get to see a sense that I also have the responsibility to make the reality that I want to see.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So, this upbringing that you had, when did you start thinking about coming to study in the US? When did that uh seed first get planted for you?

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Uh it was uh in uh 2016, uh, when one of my friends uh was sick, and uh then uh he had like cancer, like glioblastoma. And then uh they told him that he needs to go overseas to get medical attention and all that. And I had to ask why does he have to go overseas? And they said we don't have the technology that they do have that side to help him with the treatment. And that's when I was trying, I was I was planning to study in South African University of Cape Town. That's when I was trying to understand all that, and I was like, so even if I study here, I won't really make much impact since we do not really have much technology. What about if I go and study where there is the technology and everything that we do need in medicine? And once I'm done, we can be able to get all that knowledge and bring back to us and we're able to help our own people because it's kind of expensive for them to travel here, the visa process and all that. You're gonna die before you even get all that done. And I was like, I think I need to go to get the best of the best.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

And is that what made you decide to become uh you're a pre-med student at uh Minnesota State University Mankato? Is that what does made you decide to go into medicine?

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Oh, medicine, uh, I was already looking forward to it. And it was a decision that I made based on my love for biology and science. And also in my family, we don't have doctors, we have uh engineers, accountants, and all that. And I remember one of the time uh we had a grandfather who was sick, and all of us were just looking at him, and I look at the whole room, I look at educated people, but we couldn't do anything because what we are educated on does not save life. And I was like, the important thing here on earth is life. Without life, you can't do any other things. So why can't we have somebody who protects our life as much as we have somebody who protects our money and other things? So we are lacking the health sector in our family, and I was like, I'm going to be the one to cover that gap.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

What did your parents think when you told them you were gonna go study in the US and study medicine?

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Like my dad was cool with it, but my mom wasn't cool with it. It was like, you know, it's a foreign country, used to be young, and you know, parents like mothers, they still want to close at the time. And they say, like, you don't know anybody there because I didn't know anyone here. I was just me against the world. And so that was a thing, but at the end of the day, they're like, you know, we respect your decision, you do what you have to do, and then I came there.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

And they've been supportive of it. Oh, yeah, definitely. That's great, that's great. And you see, so you said uh it's me against the world, and and I I noticed in in your uh social media too, you have a lot of like hip-hop uh uh references. Oh yeah. Is hip hop a big influence for you?

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Oh yeah, I mean, I mean, when I started listening to Tupac, uh I get to understand a lot about the United States and the society. It's like his music's like a poem of what's going on. And some of the things that are happening today, it's like he said it in 1994, 1993. And I'm just like, oh, oh, so this is how it is. Oh, so this is how it is. And he made me understand most of most of the things that I never understood uh when I was back home. When I'm seeing it now, I'm just like, oh, this is what you're talking about. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

It's amazing how ahead of their time they were. Have you seen uh there's a documentary called Hip Hop Evolution?

SPEAKER_03 18:15

Oh, yeah, I did. You saw that?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

How good is that?

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Oh, it was pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

So good. So you come to the US, you come to Minnesota. Was did you go anywhere else in the US before arriving in Mankato, or did you go straight to Mankato and you've been there?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Oh, oh yeah. Uh I just went straight, but I didn't know anybody here. So I just arrived at GFK and then took a plane to Minnesota, Mangato, and that was it.

SPEAKER_01 18:43

What have been some of the biggest differences you've noticed between the US, your experience in in Mankato versus back home, Zimbabwe, and South Africa?

SPEAKER_03 18:55

So Mangato is a small place, and there's a big difference because I lived in Cape Town. Cape Town is like New York. So things were very slow when I when I got here, and I felt like the city is empty, and I felt depressed to be honest. I was stressed. I even thought about moving. I was like, this place is so depressing. And I didn't know anybody. It was winter, everybody's inside. It's just snow outside, and I don't know anyone. I'm just in my room, and that's it. I'm waiting for school to start. And outside, there's no outdoor activities, nothing to do. Uh back home I used to have go surfing, but like we're on the coastal area and boat riding, we go CDCing, we have mountains, we go hiking, we had a lot of things to do. When I got here, there's nothing. So that was a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

And I was like, What did you do to get over it? What what turn the corner for you?

SPEAKER_03 19:52

I mean, like I was Jeff Darwin said, you know, organism that does not adapt, they die. So I had to adapt. I had to focus on other things. That's when I started writing and coding, spend my time coding and writing. And I adapted slowly. And when school starts, I have friends and all that, start playing FIFA and all that, engaging other people, and things kind of get to normal.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

You've obviously had a big influence on your friends and your peers at school. I want to just go through and and we're just gonna kind of pick one by one all these things that you're doing and talk a little bit about them because you're doing some incredible stuff. So the first one I want to ask you about, you said you you were seeing that international students were having problems with their employees, and they were talking about it, but they weren't really taking any actions. And so you noticed that, and you created a student workers organization that fights, protects, and educates international students. Could you talk a little bit more about how that came about and what that organization looks like?

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Oh, yeah, definitely. So for me, uh when I got here, so I got a job on my first week on a job. So, like in South Africa, we do have rights. Everything is good. So we you know how you're supposed to be treated and how you're not supposed to be treated. So when I got here and uh I started working one day and I see the things are not really, you know, good, I was like, oh, that's it, you know. Not everything is perfect, but that's the way it is. And uh as time moves on, just like I just worked for a week or so, and I see some terrible things. And I was like, why are you not talking about it? Why are you not reporting or saying even something about it? And people were just like, ah, you know, man, let's just forget about it. It happens. And then it happened to me straight straight like. And then what happened to you? I mean, I was just like um, so I was working uh at the CSU and it was just like food service. And uh my manager told me, You where were you last 30 minutes? I was like, I was here. I'm the only person who's working here, so I was here. And he said, You're not here. I was like, what are you talking about? Okay, go and check the camera because there are cameras all over. Go and check the camera and look where I was. And then he said, Don't tell me to go check the camera. And I was like, So what do you want me to do? You're not listening to me. The camera is the camera is in front of me, you don't want to check the camera, so what do you want me to do? And then um, and then he said, but don't tell me to go check the camera. I was like, Oh, so I was kind of frustrated by that time. I was like, Oh, whatever, man. And then um he said, Do you know who I am? I was like, I do know. I was like, ask all these guys, they'll tell you who I am. I was like, is that a threat? And it's like, no, but I'm telling you, you should listen to what I'm saying. I was like, I'm listening, but you're not listening to me, too. And then she did it again about two, three times. And then I had to go report to go report it, and it was resolved. And my peers that I was working with was like, how did you manage to stand up for yourself? I was like, that's what you're supposed to do. And they're like, uh, okay. And I realized that to me it was no longer happening, but to others, it's still happening, you know, people just intimidating you, just making you feel uncomfortable. And it was happening to other people, and I realized that I can't be the soldier of everybody at work. These people need to fight for themselves, and the only way they they need to do it is when they have knowledge. And I sit down myself, I'm like, why are they not saying anything? And I realized that I look at statistics or for our university, I realize these students come from countries where they are detected and they don't have voices, they don't have rights. So they are used to being suppressed and all that. They're just it's just usual to them. And then I was like, so the first thing is to educate them that they do have rights, they need they have a right to be heard. And for me to do that, I need to create a student organization, uhganization at my university. Then I did that, and I went to the uh Title IX, and they are the ones that protect like workers at school and all that, and we had some guests from those, and they started educating them how they're supposed to be treated, how to report and how everything works and all that. And since that time, they just carry on, and things are really getting better because now they know, and even some leaders from the university they talk to them, we raise the issue, they talk to them, and things are pretty much better right now. And now they know somebody's watching, somebody's listening. So they don't really treat them that way because at that point they know international students they don't get to work outside Canvas. So they don't have option. So whatever they treat them, they're still gonna take it because they just want that opportunity. But now things are better that they know that no somebody's watching.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

So is this organization it's an opportunity for students who are feeling mistreated in work? They can come and talk about it, and then you can then go and talk to an employer, talk to other people at the school to make sure that their rights are being protected.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Oh, oh, definitely. It's uh it's more so what we do is uh during orientation of new students, we talk to them about it because they're gonna receive employment and all that. So this organization is there to protect them. It's just like uh workers' union for other workers, which are professors and all that, and realize we you as much as they want to be protected, we want to be protected too. And that's how it kind of works, like you described. They get something that is not working and something that they feel they've been disadvantaged to. We go to the Title IX through that channel, we talk, we're going to the employer, we talk about it, we see the way forward from there.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

You and you said that a lot of the international students that you're with, they come from countries that they're just not used to being able to stand up for themselves. How hard has it been to try to change that mindset?

SPEAKER_03 26:48

Surprisingly, it was not hard. I thought it was gonna be hard, but these students were already they were already angry and uh they already have a lot of pain in because they understand and they know this this is not right. And we were just looking for that moment with for somebody to just enlighten them and tell them, let's rise. And then so that was the moment when we introduced that everybody came and would get united and things got better. And I thought because you know there's some psychology part of it whereby you're already, you know, kind of system is used to all that, but surprisingly, that was different. It was easy for to mobilize them, easy for them to understand and all that, and also not to abuse that too, you know, so that they know there's a thin line between your rights and so that because if you just experiencing that freedom that you haven't experienced, you might not even understand how it works and all that. So those are some of the things that we're trying to make sure that they know they're protected and they know things that they're not supposed to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Are you finding that this is helping other students branch out in other areas that helps them be more proactive and kind of take your lead on things like this?

SPEAKER_03 28:08

Oh, absolutely, because after this, they're going to have fine employment outside the university. So when they are able to be confident about themselves and everything, whilst they're still on campus, they're preparing themselves for the outside world. Outside world is too harsh. There are no beautiful stories out there. So they need to be prepared here. So once they have that knowledge and they're able to stand up for themselves, it prepares them for them to stand up for themselves on internships and other things that they'll be able to be treated fairly and all that.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Well, and if this was like the only thing that you did to help students stand up and protect rights, I'd be like, that's an amazing accomplishment. But you've got several other things that you've done as well in addition to this organization. So another one, you talked about how you were a tutor and uh and you noticed that international students weren't seeking help when they were struggling. And so when you became international student president, you said that you used the position to get to know international students and their problems. And you talked about how there were issues with like accent shaming and language barriers and racial and cultural biases that were preventing students from getting the tutoring help that they needed. Talk about how you addressed that problem.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Oh, well, definitely. So I was a tutor at uh academic success for my university. And uh as a tutor, you get to see a lot of students coming in. And I realized that there are a lot of local students that are coming in, you know, a few international students here and there. And some international students they come and they don't come back again. Uh, and I was just concerned, I didn't understand what was going on. I was like, oh, okay. And um I I had a friend who was a roommate, and he told me he went there, and he felt more worse than he felt when he was there. He was like, they made me feel dumb. I was like, how do they make you feel dumb? And he explained his story. And from that time, I started to ask other students, like, hey, uh, have you ever been into the academic success? Like, oh yeah, uh, how was the experience? And I started having that survey, uh, talking to other people that I know and all that. And then I realized there is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

What was the problem that he was experiencing? If you can like some specific things that happened to him.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

So for him, he was talking about accent shaming, whereby he is not fluent in English. He's from he's from French part of Africa, and uh he does not pronounce certain words properly, right? And uh the person who was tutoring him was making fun of that accent. And uh in other words, and other another time he was, you know, just like somebody speaking, and you're like, huh, uh-huh, like four, five, six times. And uh him actually made him so uncomfortable. And the other thing is, listen, uh in this world, there is uh, it's it's a misconception in my own perspective that if you don't understand English, you are dumb. You know, it's like English has been taken as the measurement of intelligence. So anybody who doesn't understand it is dumb. And it's something that has been widespread throughout the world and they know it. Uh, and during colonialism and all that, it's something that was is already there, and people are still recovering from all those things. So it was quick for him to feel that way and think that way, and then he just stopped going.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

When that's their role, they're supposed to be helping that person learn the language and possibly adjust their accent. But what is that like fine balance? Because you know, you said like there were times when he kept saying, what, what, what, and trying to trying to get an idea of like what was actually said. What is that balance? If someone isn't understanding you, um, and if and the accent the and they genuinely want to understand you, how would you want them to do that in a respectful way versus a non-respectful way? Like, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 32:42

So basically, if somebody's not understanding what you are saying, right? Or you're not understanding what they are saying, right? Instead of saying, ha ha ha, right? Uh you you can try to say, Did you say this? And you say some of the things that you heard, and they'll correct you, like, no, I didn't say this. And then you could you say it again. Oh, oh, so you mean this, and you guys have that conversation, and uh they understand that you're trying, you really want to understand, and uh that's how we even teach our tutors on how to approach all those things. And if it's not working, uh you or we also use um uh devices, like they can even speak in their languages and it just translates for you. Uh or or they can just write it down, like, oh, this is what I mean. And you actually have to let them know that you really want to understand, but at this moment of time you can't understand, and you're looking for better ways to understand them. And if they see that you guys are working together towards one goal of understanding each other, they're not gonna be offended about it.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

How did you find those tools to bring to this this organization, the tutoring organization? Did you was that through research, or was that just through having conversations with students and with tutors to better understand how best to serve everyone?

SPEAKER_03 34:07

So I was a tutor, right? So when I understood the problem, I tried to see how best I can actually fix all the all those problems. If not fix it, just make them better. And then uh in each and every problem, I started to counterattack it and see how best we can resolve these situations that we are we are experiencing. And I also realized that if they do have also tutors that are from their country that are better because they speak the same language. Uh, we are all international students, and you know, there's a lot of talent in the national students, they are smart and all that, they can be able to help others, each other. So if they're in the same language, then that barrier is broken. Action shaming will really tackle it, language barrier will really tackle it, accent shaming and uh cultural biases, everything was just solved just because we put somebody who is just like them, who understands them, and somebody who knows their life. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

And you've talked about in each of these organizations, it kind of brings up points of like some differences and challenges that come up in the US versus maybe what people experience back home in in their home countries. What have you found that um that is easier in the US? And what have you found that is harder in the US versus what you grew up with in Zimbabwe and South Africa?

SPEAKER_03 35:44

So basically, what I like about US is the academic freedom, whereby they don't tell you you can't be a doctor, or you're not capable of being one. They let you do it. The course and the and the system itself and what is required for you to be a doctor is gonna tell you if you can be a doctor or not. They let you try and be satisfied with yourself that I can do this or I can. And back home, they kind of channel you and narrow you, saying, Oh, these students they can do this, or these are science students, these are commercial students, these are art students, and they kind of chose the future for you guys before you're even able to choose what you think is good for you in your life. And it's it's it's too early for people to tell somebody who is 15 years old that you're doing art so you can be a lawyer or something like this, and they are not doing anything in science. What about later on in life they realize that they don't want to be doing that? They want to go for something that isn't science, so they already make life hard for those folks, which is what happens back home. And I feel like that's one of the things that I loved about the US, whereby you're able to become whatever you want to be, as long as you can do whatever it takes to be that. And that was one of also the reasons that pushed me to come over here, that academic freedom that you're able to be there and showcase yourself.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

Yeah. If you had stayed back home, what do you think you would have been pushed into?

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Uh I was already doing science, you know, physical physics, chemistry, math, and all that. So I was in the science area, uh, whereby you'd be a doctor, engineer, and other things. So if I had decided that, oh no, I think I want to be a lawyer, that's not gonna happen. I'm already in that in that path, there's no turning back. And but in the US, you can just I can even decide, like, no, I'm gonna go to law, and then I'll just add other classes, prosecutors for for law, and I'm already applying for law school. And that flexibility is also important because you know, like some life decisions they change as as time goes on. So we can't bind these kids when they're still young to what they chose there. They can things change because you you you when as you grow, you realize that this is not what I like to be, because I realize that professions are very important because you spend almost the rest of your life, half of your life, doing that. You can't do something that you don't like, it's gonna be horrible. Your life is gonna be horrible.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

For for a lot of us, we we're we're always uh it's a moving target. You know, it's it's not like you hit a certain age and you think, okay, I know exactly what I'm gonna do. And I mean, people, especially right now, people are changing roles, changing jobs all the time. So um, yeah, it's constantly evolving. What about what what are the challenges that you've been finding uh with the US versus customs or traditions that maybe you're used to back home?

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Uh I mean, in the United States, it's you know, it's competitive. Uh, and uh that's for real. It's like we are in the Olympics of education because everybody's here, every country is represented, and um opportunities to get instead of like you know, getting a place for something that you want to do, you know, you have to work, we have to work for it, and you have to earn it, uh, which is kind of a challenge, but also a good thing because you know we're getting the best out of the best, and it kind of feels good to get something that you really worked hard for. And uh also when it comes to other traditions in the in the United States, uh, it just when it comes to education, there isn't really something that was very different to me. Uh, but you know, other aspects like the social part of it, like how we integrate with the community and all that, those are something that was kind of different. Also, I had to learn and adapt to it. But it comes to education, nothing. It was similar, and I had to make just a few adjustments so that I'll be able to fit in.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Do you do you have a favorite custom or tradition or a holiday or from back home and now in the US?

SPEAKER_03 40:24

So back home, it was kind of Christmas and all that and other things, but in the US, they told me about Halloween. I'm like, what? I don't even know what Halloween is all about. It was kind of cool saying they talk about Thanksgiving and giving what? And but as time goes on, I tend to realize that oh, this is how it is. And it was it's kind of fun, you know, during Halloween, having those costumes and all that.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

But yeah, what was your costume? The first Halloween that you went out on, what what what did you dress up as?

SPEAKER_03 40:55

I I just like some skeletons in the dark, it just looks skeleton, so it was white looking. So that was what I do.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

That was fine. That was quite good. Do you have anything lined up for this Halloween? Oh, yeah, that's you're still figuring out. Yeah, okay. Okay, so on June 16th, 2019, at 10:36 PM, tell us tell us what happened to you then.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

So basically I was actually doing summer classes uh by the way, and then um it was uh at night, and uh I was like, I don't want to sleep because I have an exam tomorrow. And I was feeling sleepy. I was like, look, let me let me take a jog, right, so that uh I'll feel more active and all that. Then I'll come and bath and continue studying. And I got out of my apartment, uh I will I wear some you know, you know, jogging office, and I got my apartment, I started jogging. And when I when when I'm when I'm jogging, I saw a police car coming behind me. And uh it was it is blue lights on. So I thought, oh, probably it's somebody called 911, and they are they are attending that situation there, and I didn't put it in mind that it's me. So I'm I continued I continue jogging. I was like, I'm minding my own business, I'm going. And as the car came towards me, I actually moved on the side of the road and continue jogging. And then I turned left right, and then the car followed me. I was like, that's strange. And then I moved like behind this the side of the road so that he can pass. Uh, and he stopped. I was like, so it's me, and then so he was flashing me with the with his beams and all that. So I was just and he and when he got out of the car, he said, put your hands in the air. And then I put my hands in the air. I didn't understand what was going on. Uh I was confused though. And then I was holding my phone, so I just put my hands in the air while I was holding my phone. And he asked me, Do you have any firearm or any weapons? I like no officer, what's going on? What's wrong? And then he came to me, he searched me, he realized I had no weapons, I had nothing. And then he handcuffed me.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Why? Why did he handcuff you at that point?

SPEAKER_03 43:28

I don't know. I was like, Why are you handcuffing me? I'm not a threat. You know, you're the one with the gun and all those things. Um I don't I don't have anything. You know, um, I want to understand why I'm even detained in the in the first place. And then he I was like, so why am I being arrested or detained? He was like, you're not being arrested or detained. I was like, so I'm afraid to go. He was like, no. It's like that means I'm detained. He was like, oh yeah. So I was like, why am I being detained? I was like, he was like, uh, you know what happened is In this area that you live, there's some baglies that happened two, three months ago. And uh I saw you running, uh, and I had to stop you. I was like, if they happened three weeks uh, three months ago, how does it have anything to do with me running today? Does somebody steal three months ago and run today? It doesn't make sense, and then he was like, I have to investigate that. So why were you running? I'm like, I'm jogging, like, am I over speeding or what? Because I don't, I've never seen anybody pull door for running. I'm not in a car, so I don't understand what this is all about. And he was like, Okay, getting getting then he opened the door, he threw me in the back of his car. He started talking to me, where were you coming from? And I told him, I'm just coming from my house. And he said, Okay, he called backup. He said, Ben then backup came, they had to to to sweep the whole area, and they said nothing happened. I was like, Did anybody call 911? They said no. What was so? What was your reason for you to stop me? It was like you're running. I was like, I seen many people running, and there are some other two guys that ran without shirts when we were there. And I was like, Why are you not stopping them? And he's like, I'm focusing on you right now. I don't stop 10 people at the same time. If I was not on you, I would stop them. I was like, Oh, okay. And uh I didn't want to, you know, escalate the situation. Uh, I had to cooperate. And I cooperated, asked me my name, I gave him everything. Uh I didn't have my ID on on that time. I told him my name, my license number, and everything. He got it. And uh I told him, I don't even have a speeding ticket. My record is clean. It was like, oh yeah, I can see that. Anyway, uh, let's just see if nothing happens there. They see nothing happened. And after 20 minutes or 30 minutes, he let me go.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

And what are you feeling in that in that time? What what feelings are and and thoughts are going through your head?

SPEAKER_03 46:14

I thought I was gonna die, to be honest. And uh I seen videos people getting shot and all that. So at that point of time, I thought I was gonna die. Uh especially when he said put your hands in the air, and I was holding my phone, I was like, maybe he's gonna think it's a gun. And I can't even show it or talk to him. And at that time I couldn't even speak. I was just trembling in fear, like what's going on? I didn't even understand it. And uh when he came forward and all that, he put me in handcuffs and throw me in the car. I was kind of relieved that at least it's not gonna kill. You know, and if I'm gonna go to the precinct and gonna talk about it, at least I'm still alive. And I think I'm really grateful that I was able to watch all videos and know how to react when such incidents do happen. And I know you don't have to do anything that's gonna escalate it, just follow what they want, even if you realize it's unreasonable and it's against the law, just just do it and get away with it, and then you're gonna look at all those legal things that they're broken later on while it's just you alive. So, on that one, I was terrified. And it was my first time in my life to get handcuffs. So I was like, oh, this is how they feel. Yeah, and to bend in the back of the cars like just like a movie, because I was like, I didn't understand what's going on. It happened so fast.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah, and so you you think like if you hadn't seen other videos and had been kind of familiar with how to handle yourself in that situation, things could have gone a lot differently.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

I could have been dead because back home is different, you know. Whether whether the cop is black, white, or whatever it is, it's different. Whenever you feel you see officers, you don't even get scared. You're actually happy you see them, like, oh man, I'm just I'm speeding, I know. Uh I'm a student, I don't even have manual prepared for this. You know, where are you rushing to? You tell you, you talk to them, if they give you a ticket or not, that's it. But you know that like there's no that question that is going to lead to somebody dying. You know that there's no chances that you're gonna get shot or what. So if I didn't have to see all those other things and know that I should have, I don't need to make any silly mistake, any movement or anything, because it was a dark, it was dark, it was a night. Uh I could have been shot. And was you or you you already pulled this firearm and it was like put your hands in the air. So it was just a second for him to just to just shoot me. So if I didn't know how to take off the situation, yeah, I could have been dead.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

How long did it take? Because kind of a theme through all of these different organizations that you've created is you take this problem, you identify a problem, something that's happened in your life, and you actually turn it into a positive. So in this case, this is another one that you actually turned into a positive. You created an organization to address this. How long did it take from that experience uh to actually forming this organization? And tell us about the organization.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

So after that, I was terrified, I was hurt, and it was personal to me. You know, you feel less of a human, you feel like, so I mean, this this issue is bigger than myself, you know. It's something that is happening to almost everybody, you know, and I can't fix it. At that point of time, I will I realized that there's no way I can just mobilize people and tell them, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you guys need to be doing like this, like this, like this. I need to have that power to be able to mobilize these people. And that's when I ran for the international student president. And now I was like, if I now have the power to bring them in and let them know how to handle themselves, the better, because I was like, if anybody who didn't know how to handle this, they could be dead. And I don't want anybody to be in my situation or even worse, and because I don't want to be the next hashtag or never or anybody next hashtag. So we need to do something before it happens, before we start saying justice for who and who. It was kind of hard. It took time for me to actually think about ways you know to make it better, try to reflect on the on the incident, like what did I do that made the situation easy for me? Uh what did I knew? And um, I realized that in as much as we need to protect ourselves, we need to understand each other. And uh also read some books when it comes to you know racial biases and uh uh how passive racism and all that, whereby usually we are scared of things that we do not understand. And once we have an understanding of each other, we tend to be less scared of each other. And I realize that we really need to be united and we really need to be used to these offices, and they really need to be used to us. We're not a threat, you know, like they need to understand that we are not a threat, but they can understand we're not a threat unless we expose ourselves to them and let them know we're not a threat, you know, and what do you expect from us? So then we as a national student press, then we'll be able to talk to the local uh police for us and invited them to come and talk to us and all about that.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

And these were through uh diversity events that you organized?

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Oh, yeah, and through diversity, deficit events. So going to they're going, they come, they talk to us, what they expect from us, when they stop us and all that. And you know, they educate this international student. Now they know if I get stopped, I need to do this, to do this, to do this. They told us, I mean, America is different from countries that you guys come from. Here they're wearing with guns, other countries don't have guns. So if I'm stopping you, I don't know what you have. So I want to protect myself as much as you want to protect yourself. I know it's kind of hard because no, we are not, we are not all good, we are not all bad either. So for you to survive, you need to just have you know a universal approach to either good cup or bad cup. And uh they tell us what they expect from us, and we share with them our experiences and all that, and so that they're able to understand us better and and all that. And we that's why we continue doing that. And I mean, like, you know, city here, there hasn't been any bunny getting shot or something like that by the police or nothing, there haven't been any. And you know, you know, police they do greet you and all that, and we'll kind of have that friendly relationship with the police department because we really need them as much as they kill us, we really need. So we're just trying to find a way to work together.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

And what do you think you were able to teach them about your because you talked about how they, you know, got you you got a better understanding of where they were coming from and what their needs are. What were you able to teach them? And what do you think you you know you opened their eyes to?

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Oh, we're just able to take them and let them know that we're not a threat. And um, whenever you guys stop, mostly whatever we do, it's just a reflex action whereby you treat your body's already going to that sympathetic pathway, and you just want it's just a flea of fight more moment, and you just want to save yourself. You're already terrified with what's going on uh in the world, and we already know you we are traumatized naturally with what is going on. So sometimes it's not like we want to do something to harm you guys, but we just don't know what to do at that moment of time. And um, we come from places that do not have these kind of situations, and it we're adapting, and it is going to be nice if you guys gave us that opportunity to adapt and treat us better and to be able to understand us more better. We're not a threat to anybody, you know, we just just like any anybody in the country just trying to survive and stay above the ground. So people share their stories, how they would react and what they think, and all that, they express their feelings and all that. And um, so um, you know, they learned also some of the things that we as we go on, and but also the international students, they come here, they don't know it. We let them know that this is the situation because I realize in America nobody tells you, oh, you're going to experience this and this and this and this and this and this and this. You just gotta figure it out. That oh, this is how it is. And so at our university, we just try to inform them so that they don't make mistakes that are going to be deadly to them, uh, as these international students. Well, for me, I had to learn from YouTube. It's not going everybody who's gonna do that. So that's why we try to give that information to these students that are coming, new students, and so that it comes and it becomes a habit for that for the police to come and all that, then we have a better relationship.

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Since you've been here, what are some of the stereotypes that you feel like people have of international students?

SPEAKER_03 55:47

Uh definitely. First one is we're dumb. We don't understand a lot of things. And I mean, that was that was that is the major role that plays when it comes to the tutoring thing and all that, that racial bias and all that, just like, oh, they're dumb. You know what I'm saying? And I I I felt that even in classes, because when we uh having, for example, lab, right? And you get a partner most likely who is like local, uh they generally think you don't you don't know what's going on. And if you are like group of five, they don't even ask you anything, they just do what they think is right, even if it's wrong, they just do it. They don't even ask what you think, what's your opinion. And if you say something, they're just gonna be like, oh, okay, and they continue doing what they're doing. So they already told themselves that you don't know, you know, saying because your accent, you even the way you're speaking, is not even you know, properly, you know, they just like uh and that and that's what's like that's the major stereotype of international, especially in the classroom. And I used to get offended about it, but you know, at the end of the day, I'm just like that's that's that's that's the way it is, you know. I'm just gonna deal with it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Do you think it is because of the because of accents or because people look different? Oh, because usually it's because of race.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Um race is a major factor into that. Uh, whereby they just think you're dumb. You're not gonna you don't understand anything. And if you interview international students, they'll tell you that once in their lifetime in the US, uh in in classes, they have experienced that, whereby people make you feel like you're dumb and all that. But you know, you know yourself and all that, and you're just like, okay, I'm just gonna let it let it slide. You know, it's tongue, it's not affecting my group and all. That's why for me, I personally don't like group style, group projects and all that, because I can't stand to be silenced, you know what I'm saying? So, and sometimes I have to be silent and to understand what's going on and how it is.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

I'm surprised actually that you say you don't like group projects because it seems like you're forming all these organizations that really depend on groups of people coming together.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Yeah, but when it comes to classes, when it comes to work that's going to determine my grade or my transcript, I kind of feel like groups are good, right? If there is mutual respect among participants. But if there isn't such, then they're just devastating. Yeah. So for me, when it comes to something that's gonna affect my grade, I highly opt for individual work than groups, but you know, they got to make us in groups, so we're just gonna accept that. But yeah, if I had to choose, in other things, groups are fine, you know, a lot of ideas and all that, and people they you tend to learn from other people. But when it's the opposite, then it's just not as if as effective as the professor wanted to be.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Yeah, so it's about finding the right group and the right situation. Yeah, yeah. So, what about what stereotypes or misconceptions did you have of US citizens and and people that you encountered when you came here?

SPEAKER_03 59:15

It's just it's just already know that there is uh there's a police problem here, right? And uh already, oh, and I've seen videos and all that, like uh I've been mentioning. And I also had I also had a good experience experience. So that's why like when the bad experience happened to me, I was able to look for a positive way to resolve it with all my anger that I had. But already I knew that oh, they do, police do that, right? But uh I had an experience when I was driving from Minapolis at night, it was around 12 or something like that. And uh, you know, um state trooper started me. And and he was like, Oh, you're going about 15 miles above speed limit. Where are you rushing to? I was like, Oh, um I couldn't speak because I was just terrified. I was just terrified, it was my first time that time. Uh and he was like, Don't be scared. I was like, I just don't want to get shot, man. And he was like, No, no, no, yeah, no, no, I'm not gonna shoot you. You're just like my son, you know, like why should I shoot you? I'm just trying to understand what's going on. And I was like, so when I when I pulled over, uh, I was kind of shaking already, so I scraped my car on the on the right side. He was like, I think you scraped your car when we pulled over. I was like, Yeah, I was when I just saw the blue lights, I was just like scared and all that. And he was like, I understand. You can you can come out and see what happened and change and shake it. I was like, Are you sure I should come out? It's like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was super nice, and that's when I realized that someone's you know, they're not all bad. But the stereotype, when you here in the streets, it's just like they're all bad, you know. And then now that and through experience, you realize that for me, I experienced the bad and the good, so now I know that yeah, they're both, but there is a chance for people to be better, and they are already people who are better than that, and it's achievable. And these are some of the stereotypes that I just heard that oh yeah, the cops, they're just gonna mess you up if you if you made them.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:29

I'm glad you told that story. I wonder if partly having that other experience with the police officer might have helped to show you the different sides and help put it in perspective.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:42

Oh, yeah, it definitely did because I had the good experience first before I had the bad one. So when the bad one came, I was like, oh yeah, here we go again. But you know, I understand that there is another good side of it. So I wasn't I was devastated that time, but I knew there is hope, you know, of for better for better society and all that. And I know, I mean, like what Martin Luther King said, you know, violence does not oh hate does not really give us good results, and it does not, you know, darkness does not chase away darkness, you know, only light can. So even if I rage and hate and all that, it's not gonna make the situation easy or better. But if we work together, that's the only way things are gonna get better. So, but the first up the first situation really helped me a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:36

Yeah, and you're you're you're so right. There's no reason to hold on to the anger, it's just that energy that gets stuck and takes us down bad roads. And you've done such a good job of taking these challenging experiences and what some people would uh crumble with, and you've actually turned them into really positives in all of the work that you're doing. So I commend you a lot for all that great work. On a bit of a lighter note, as we kind of wrap things up, do you have any favorite slang words that you've learned in the US?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:12

Uh I mean, it just kind of different whereby like, you know, we used to call it like pop. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Some people call it soda, some people call it pop.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:23

Yeah, I was like, what are you talking about? You know, and uh yeah, so that's so that's all some of the things that I just got here. I was like, oh, that's that's kind of different. And uh, you know, when you go, it depends which people are you associating with. If you are like uh you know hanging around with you know African Americans, uh, you know, they have their way of of saying things and uh you know the real language and the street language, right? And also you kind of you kind of experience all of that and also do you have any from from back home? Well yeah, yeah, we do we do we do have some slang slang words and by the way you're smiling. I'm wondering if they're are they not appropriate to it's like you know, like most of them that not, you know, but there's some that are that are appropriate, you know, say, oh my god, they do that they do have we do have it, but yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

We I I won't press you on those. I see already kind of smiling sheepishly there. So when we uh when when you had first agreed to this interview, you you you'd said that your goal was you wanted to let other international students know that there are opportunities and that you can make a difference. And you said, you know, I'm here and it's working. Do you feel like what we've talked about in this interview? Do you feel like mission accomplished, that we've achieved that and that you've been able to express some of that to other international students and just other students in general?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:02

Oh, definitely, you know, because um, you know, when I wish somebody told me some of the things that we discussed here so that I won't be just surprised of what's going on in America and all that. And also when it comes to opportunities, absolutely there are opportunities, the sky is the limit. And that was part of the that academic freedom that I was talking about, whereby, for example, now I'm working, I'm I'm working on a research that has to do with computer science, you know, using artificial intelligence to diagnose glio blastoma.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:36

Which is brain cancer?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:37

Uh brain cancer. So we realize that at its early stage, it's hard for you to diagnose it. And when they diagnose it, it's already damaged you. Uh, and it's now hard to control. So we try using our computer to learn about the images. So we're going to train our computers to know the images of its early stage. Then we use our computers to detect. So our computers are more good than us in reading and all that. And they don't forget. So I'm trying to use computers to detect blastomers at its early stage. So it's still a research in progress, and we are trying to use pictures and all that, like you know, officers, doctors, and all that. And the system that I created really did a great job to identify this an officer, 90% officer did it. So I realized that if it's working on this, what about on real life problems, like you know, and those resources are there here to, you know, you know, those supercomputers to use and doing all those things? And you have the opportunities and people to help you with all those things that you want to do, either in a discipline or in a disciplinary. And it's all about you and your ambitions and where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

Did did that um did the brain cancer artificial intelligence work that you're doing right now? Did that interest come about because of your friend who was diagnosed with cancer? Is that what motivated you?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:11

Oh, yeah, definitely. That's what motivated me because it was it was too late when they realized that he has it and they couldn't find it at first. Uh so I code, I do coding and all that. So I was like, oh, so I I took like my first two, three years, two years here, I was doing, I was studying deep learning on my own because I major in biochemistry and nuclear medicine technology, so which is kind of different with coding and uh computer science. So I just started learning on my own, deep learning and all that, and machine learning and all that. And I realized that okay, what are what's happening on photorecognition? Because on photorecnition, we're actually putting these photos into the system and we're telling the computer to identify these photos. That's how they are recognizing you. So, what about if we train them to identify uh CT scans and uh MRIs of these plastomas that we already diagnosed, and that computer is going to learn whenever somebody thinks it has it and we put it there, it has to detect. And it's not gonna be 100%, but it's gonna be sufficient for us to know that they probably have it. So I tried before I do test on CD scans, I can now do it on pictures, like I told you. And those pictures, it would the system that I created, those algorithms, they work just fine. And it identified the differences and all that. And now uh during the start of the semester, we're going to start the process to acquire about 10 to 60,000 uh uh CG scans and MRIs of chleoblastomas so that the computer starts learning.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:03

It sounds like your friend passed away from cancer.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:05

Oh yeah, I did.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:06

What was his name?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:08

It was Terrence.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:09

Terence. Do you think how do you think Terrence would would feel about the work you're doing and all the things that the successes and all the organizations that you've created in the US?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:24

I think, you know, it's just it was just just a way to honor him and to make sure to also make sure that there won't be another Terrence that's going to experience the same thing. You know, it's devastating that you are sick and basically they're not seeing anything, you know. And I feel like in this edge of technology, we must be able to provide something that's going to at least, you know, help people and remain realizing the United States, it's like cancer is the leading, is the leading the factor that on death in in America, you know, except about the heart and all that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:00

You think he'd be proud of you on the on all the other organizations you've created too?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

Oh, definitely. He was a guy who really wanted to make a difference, and that's why we connected a lot. And now that I'm making that reality, he's he's gonna be proud of me. And I think if he was alive today, he was gonna be doing the same thing. Because he was that guy who was outgoing, expressing himself to the fullest, what he thinks about anything, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

Amen. Well, I think that's a good way to end it. Thank you so much. It's really it's been wonderful talking with you. Uh it's been an honor. Thank you, Liberty.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you guys for the opportunity for me to share all this. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Our pleasure. Thank you again for listening to International Student Stories. And thank you to our team for putting together this episode. Stories are meant to be shared, so please pass the story on to a friend or family member who needs to hear a good story. A few other quick notes. I invite you to check out the show notes if you want more details on some of the topics discussed in this episode. For all the latest podcast news, stomp by our website, study in the USA Global.com forward slash podcast. That's S-T-U-D-Y in the USA Global.com forward slash podcast. Subscribe to the International Student Stories Podcast to be alerted on new episodes. And contact us if you know of a current or former international student whose story needs to be shared with the world. Goodbye for now, be well, and much love to each and every one of you.